How Marketing Attribution Failed Us
Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 9:18 am
In this episode, we dissect the pitfalls of marketing attribution, from flawed models to the growing challenges of tracking in a privacy-focused era. We explore how over-indexing on data risks stifling creativity and why attribution often fails bay new zealand telemarketing dat to capture critical interactions like word-of-mouth. Inspired by the layered brilliance of Paul’s Boutique by the Beastie Boys, this episode offers practical tips for marketers to balance data with storytelling and embrace imperfection in the customer journey.
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Transcript
Ryan
Today's topic is going to be one of which strikes a nerve for marketers. We're going to chase the rabbit hole that is marketing attribution. We're going to discuss is it working? If so, how? Or more importantly, is it failing you in your business and inhibiting your ability to grow the things that matter most? What I'm excited about. We're gonna talk about Paul's Boutique, Beastie Boys legendary album, and how it might loosely correlate to our topic of attribution as a whole.
All that and more on today's episode of On the Record.
Today, we're excited to be joined by another Ryan on set a multiple of two. It's great. Ryan Kopperud you join us is a long-standing marketing leader, one of which has impacted countless brands in the SAS sector. Welcome to On the Record.
Ryan K
Thank you. It's great to be here. And lead pages alum that we like most one. One of one of us still hopefully either in concept or in legacy.
This I love. Glad to be here. Your legacy, permeates. Last time you and I were doing a Lead Pages podcast together, you were behind the camera and I was in your chair all the time for many, many moons ago. And how the tides have turned. Yes, but it's gonna be love here. Yeah. Like. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Ryan
Yeah. And to my right, of course. Michael Sacca, CEO of Leadpages. I come to you as your head honcho of marketing, Ryan Truax, elite. Pages. And where I start by just defining the topic. Right. Marketing attribution is one of them, which has some weight and requires a definition, because some of our earlier marketers might not be familiar with it. So, Michael, take us through your version of marketing attribution and what it means to you.
Michael
Yeah. So I mean, I think generally people are familiar, but it's it's how we give credit to different touchpoints along the marketing journey. We all know the kind of classic seven touchpoints to to a conversion. How do we start to measure each of those touchpoints, give credit to allocate budget against? That's what marketing attribution was designed to try to solve.
Ryan, in your version of from your own experiences? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the way that I think about marketing attribution is just about trying to quantify how somebody finds you. You know, if you're looking for a customer and they're out in the world, the vastness of the internet or the world in general, how did they go from not having any idea who I was to becoming up in customer?
Ryan K
And what can we do from a data point perspective to actually quantify that journey all the way to becoming that customer? And you're right, because marketers are always looking for that perfect element of scalability, right? Is the idea of finding something that works and and growing it from there. And one of the things excites me most about why maybe I'm maybe in favor of an attribution model is the ability to optimize my budgets.
Ryan
Right? If I know what's working, I know where to spend. Yeah. So I guess in favor of that. Do you agree, Michael, do you think that that's worthy of the the rabbit hole that is valuing every touchpoint at a certain dollar amount?
Michael
Yeah, I think there's, an elements of value to it, but I think the different models there is no one failed. Right? We've got first touch attribution, where we give all credit to the to the discovery, that last touch, which gives all credit to the conversion. We got multi-touch, which then you kind of make up your model in between of those 6 or 7 touchpoints across email or text or whatever.
The I don't think there is a perfect answer. And thus I think it's a good lens at which to analyze, but I do not think it's reliable enough. And I think lots of brands have actually made the mistake of allocating budget based on what would be a, imperfect model.
Ryan
Yeah. No question. Ryan, your experiences have taught you what? You like it, you hate it. Yeah. I think, you know, marketing attribution is a thing that, when we try to define it, there is our definition of it. But it can be scaled dramatically depending on the business. Right? Some people marketing attribution is like, do you have your pixel set up and are we watching those pixels?
Ryan K
Are we getting signal data from our pixels? Are we using UTM parameters okay. Those are all versions of attribution. And I think in a lot of those situations it's like okay, those are table stakes from an attribution perspective. Then there's this sort of okay, complex complete journey, fRyant to back touch, multi-touch, etc. that starts to really dive into a super heavy duty marketing operations component of things where we're starting to like really, really try to, formalize things in a way that that's where I think marketing attribution starts to become a little bit problematic.
If we overindex on data, we start to kind of take the soul out of marketing a little bit. You know, people will I won't be the first or last person to say this. I think a lot of people, think that they're logical creatures, and we all use our logic and reasoning to navigate the world, but we're really also super emotional creatures.
And to your point, allocating budget to just match the data. Sometimes it forces us to take the budget out of the heart of things and out of things that might be a little bit less attributable or less proven by the modeling. But are still things that are extremely value in some ways. I would advocate even more valuable than the things that you can actually scale from an ROI perspective.
Ryan
That's what I was going to ask. Also, are we overweighting its value inside of a business because we give it so much emphasis and at times I think it either holds people back because I kind of tease this episode with, or it does accelerate their ability to make decisions. We feel like attribution allows us to make faster decisions or slower decisions.
Michael
But I think the nature of data in general is we're looking backwards. And so if we're going to rely solely on the data, to your point, we're going to make decisions based on what's worked in the past. But we're going to miss some of that, where the market's moving, where we need to be in the future. By over indexing on data alone. And so it's one but it's not all.
Ryan K
Yeah, yeah. I come from a world of startups. I think one of the best values of any startup is its ability to be agile or nimble or quick force. I think over indexing on data, we get into a little bit of a paralysis by analysis, where we can't keep moving until we know if that funnel is working, or we can't keep doing this until we have clearer, cleaner data.
And I think, you know, chasing a perfect documentation of a beginning to end customer experience is, frankly, it's a fool's errand. And also it's getting harder to, you know, I mean, I think the thing I find a lot of folks are feeling in the marketing industry, I know I have and I know people, people like me are, you're starting to feel this.
Well, that used to work, but I feel like it doesn't anymore. I feel like we're. There's a gap here, isn't there? And then, I mean, every time you download a new app from the App Store, ask app not to track. That's me. Yeah, I do ask that app not to report before. I don't need my Google Display ads and any more tailored than they've been for my whole life, right?
I don't need that type of personalization. And I think we're seeing that become the, the general consumer's preferences. Like, I don't I don't need this personalization, this tailoring. I don't want you to track me. Well, the more that we continue to have that be the consumer preference. And we're seeing this happen in Safari and in Google and all these other places where like cookies are becoming more complex, etc., actually executing on the ideal world of I know exactly where my consumer started and ended with me as a business is getting harder and harder and ever.
And so I think like the conversation that I'm so interested in continuing to have with businesses and with folks like you guys even right now, is like, if it is getting harder, if you agree that it's getting harder, maybe you do. Maybe you don't like what's next. Then if it is getting harder, is chasing it worth the investment?
Because there's an opportunity cost and any startup brand, if you're doing something and you're chasing something, you are inherently not doing something else. You are inherently not chasing something else. And so, you know, are we over indexing on trying to perfect that model? And in doing so, are we losing the opportunity to look forward like you're into the future and goal?
What could we be doing, not just what has worked? Yeah, to the contrary though, I might suggest the customer experience is one that's improved upon by the right attribution. Right? Sure. Really. Like I, I talked to a lot of marketers and just general consumers who believe that, like, actually, I don't mind personalized ads because it gets me to my end goal.
Watch the episode
Listen to the episode
Otr Cta
Get The Latest Marketing Insights With a Musical Twist
Subscribe to On the Record, the hard-hitting podcast that combines valuable marketing insights with classic music with surprising results.
Enter your email
Subscribe
Transcript
Ryan
Today's topic is going to be one of which strikes a nerve for marketers. We're going to chase the rabbit hole that is marketing attribution. We're going to discuss is it working? If so, how? Or more importantly, is it failing you in your business and inhibiting your ability to grow the things that matter most? What I'm excited about. We're gonna talk about Paul's Boutique, Beastie Boys legendary album, and how it might loosely correlate to our topic of attribution as a whole.
All that and more on today's episode of On the Record.
Today, we're excited to be joined by another Ryan on set a multiple of two. It's great. Ryan Kopperud you join us is a long-standing marketing leader, one of which has impacted countless brands in the SAS sector. Welcome to On the Record.
Ryan K
Thank you. It's great to be here. And lead pages alum that we like most one. One of one of us still hopefully either in concept or in legacy.
This I love. Glad to be here. Your legacy, permeates. Last time you and I were doing a Lead Pages podcast together, you were behind the camera and I was in your chair all the time for many, many moons ago. And how the tides have turned. Yes, but it's gonna be love here. Yeah. Like. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Ryan
Yeah. And to my right, of course. Michael Sacca, CEO of Leadpages. I come to you as your head honcho of marketing, Ryan Truax, elite. Pages. And where I start by just defining the topic. Right. Marketing attribution is one of them, which has some weight and requires a definition, because some of our earlier marketers might not be familiar with it. So, Michael, take us through your version of marketing attribution and what it means to you.
Michael
Yeah. So I mean, I think generally people are familiar, but it's it's how we give credit to different touchpoints along the marketing journey. We all know the kind of classic seven touchpoints to to a conversion. How do we start to measure each of those touchpoints, give credit to allocate budget against? That's what marketing attribution was designed to try to solve.
Ryan, in your version of from your own experiences? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the way that I think about marketing attribution is just about trying to quantify how somebody finds you. You know, if you're looking for a customer and they're out in the world, the vastness of the internet or the world in general, how did they go from not having any idea who I was to becoming up in customer?
Ryan K
And what can we do from a data point perspective to actually quantify that journey all the way to becoming that customer? And you're right, because marketers are always looking for that perfect element of scalability, right? Is the idea of finding something that works and and growing it from there. And one of the things excites me most about why maybe I'm maybe in favor of an attribution model is the ability to optimize my budgets.
Ryan
Right? If I know what's working, I know where to spend. Yeah. So I guess in favor of that. Do you agree, Michael, do you think that that's worthy of the the rabbit hole that is valuing every touchpoint at a certain dollar amount?
Michael
Yeah, I think there's, an elements of value to it, but I think the different models there is no one failed. Right? We've got first touch attribution, where we give all credit to the to the discovery, that last touch, which gives all credit to the conversion. We got multi-touch, which then you kind of make up your model in between of those 6 or 7 touchpoints across email or text or whatever.
The I don't think there is a perfect answer. And thus I think it's a good lens at which to analyze, but I do not think it's reliable enough. And I think lots of brands have actually made the mistake of allocating budget based on what would be a, imperfect model.
Ryan
Yeah. No question. Ryan, your experiences have taught you what? You like it, you hate it. Yeah. I think, you know, marketing attribution is a thing that, when we try to define it, there is our definition of it. But it can be scaled dramatically depending on the business. Right? Some people marketing attribution is like, do you have your pixel set up and are we watching those pixels?
Ryan K
Are we getting signal data from our pixels? Are we using UTM parameters okay. Those are all versions of attribution. And I think in a lot of those situations it's like okay, those are table stakes from an attribution perspective. Then there's this sort of okay, complex complete journey, fRyant to back touch, multi-touch, etc. that starts to really dive into a super heavy duty marketing operations component of things where we're starting to like really, really try to, formalize things in a way that that's where I think marketing attribution starts to become a little bit problematic.
If we overindex on data, we start to kind of take the soul out of marketing a little bit. You know, people will I won't be the first or last person to say this. I think a lot of people, think that they're logical creatures, and we all use our logic and reasoning to navigate the world, but we're really also super emotional creatures.
And to your point, allocating budget to just match the data. Sometimes it forces us to take the budget out of the heart of things and out of things that might be a little bit less attributable or less proven by the modeling. But are still things that are extremely value in some ways. I would advocate even more valuable than the things that you can actually scale from an ROI perspective.
Ryan
That's what I was going to ask. Also, are we overweighting its value inside of a business because we give it so much emphasis and at times I think it either holds people back because I kind of tease this episode with, or it does accelerate their ability to make decisions. We feel like attribution allows us to make faster decisions or slower decisions.
Michael
But I think the nature of data in general is we're looking backwards. And so if we're going to rely solely on the data, to your point, we're going to make decisions based on what's worked in the past. But we're going to miss some of that, where the market's moving, where we need to be in the future. By over indexing on data alone. And so it's one but it's not all.
Ryan K
Yeah, yeah. I come from a world of startups. I think one of the best values of any startup is its ability to be agile or nimble or quick force. I think over indexing on data, we get into a little bit of a paralysis by analysis, where we can't keep moving until we know if that funnel is working, or we can't keep doing this until we have clearer, cleaner data.
And I think, you know, chasing a perfect documentation of a beginning to end customer experience is, frankly, it's a fool's errand. And also it's getting harder to, you know, I mean, I think the thing I find a lot of folks are feeling in the marketing industry, I know I have and I know people, people like me are, you're starting to feel this.
Well, that used to work, but I feel like it doesn't anymore. I feel like we're. There's a gap here, isn't there? And then, I mean, every time you download a new app from the App Store, ask app not to track. That's me. Yeah, I do ask that app not to report before. I don't need my Google Display ads and any more tailored than they've been for my whole life, right?
I don't need that type of personalization. And I think we're seeing that become the, the general consumer's preferences. Like, I don't I don't need this personalization, this tailoring. I don't want you to track me. Well, the more that we continue to have that be the consumer preference. And we're seeing this happen in Safari and in Google and all these other places where like cookies are becoming more complex, etc., actually executing on the ideal world of I know exactly where my consumer started and ended with me as a business is getting harder and harder and ever.
And so I think like the conversation that I'm so interested in continuing to have with businesses and with folks like you guys even right now, is like, if it is getting harder, if you agree that it's getting harder, maybe you do. Maybe you don't like what's next. Then if it is getting harder, is chasing it worth the investment?
Because there's an opportunity cost and any startup brand, if you're doing something and you're chasing something, you are inherently not doing something else. You are inherently not chasing something else. And so, you know, are we over indexing on trying to perfect that model? And in doing so, are we losing the opportunity to look forward like you're into the future and goal?
What could we be doing, not just what has worked? Yeah, to the contrary though, I might suggest the customer experience is one that's improved upon by the right attribution. Right? Sure. Really. Like I, I talked to a lot of marketers and just general consumers who believe that, like, actually, I don't mind personalized ads because it gets me to my end goal.